Welcome!

 

Our next SC will not be until September 3 at my place. 

The topic that I would suggest involves a consideration of Adam's paper on paradigm shifts.  Very few close friends or relatives that I know have made major changes in their world view.  From my perspective, people are generally aware of many of the examples Adam gives, but are very unlikely to seriously consider the basis of their own beliefs and make any significant changes.  What is your view?

Which on more view, of many mine being one    Romeo and Juliet: I, ii

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Hal has chosen the topic "The Criteria for Truth" for June 18 here at my place.
 
For starters, this is an interesting quote: "The situations that men define as true, become true for them." Sociologist William Thomas, 1928
 

May, but at the length truth will out.   Merchant of Venice: II, ii
 

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GB: If there is an Ultimate Truth, are there Penultimate Truths (truths)?

Adam chimes in 10 pm: No there is no single ultimate truth. That's assuming that really great truths about life can be reduced to a single statement of any kind.

There's no such reductionistic answer to any major question: What is life, what is life about, what is nature, what is a flower, what is time, etc. Rather, there may be hundreds or thousands or an infinite number of comments all requiring other comments also...

Truth, then, is an asymptotic limit, like perfection, speed of light, etc.

The word and concept is only useful as a relative term, in dealing with this or that problem.

AB: More comments to john's questions 11 am:
Good answers, Hal. But I still have problems with being true to oneself. 1. What if a person is irrational themselves and does not realize it?

AB: I agree because self-deception is prevalent, ubiquitous, and that principle is that which shows the utility of psychoanalysis.

Even then, perfect clarity is as mentioned---an asymptotic limit.

JS: 2. What if the person is a social deviant such as a pedophile? ab yes, but even true for healthy moderately rational folks like us, there's still a ton of self-deception in many ways...

JS3 In my opinion, sometimes being true to oneself may not be best. AB: Many think that Polonius' advice to Laertes in Hamlet was a satire on advice-giving and platitudes, though others have taken his little advice passage as if it were indeed wise.

JS4 Also, some people may have other opinions about ultimate truth. AB: Understatement of the week!

JS5: Can there be more than one ultimate truth? AB: see above. There cannot be an ultimate truth, and you will never win full consensus on any given claim to truth, even moderate truth.

Hal to John 9am this morning: One must believe in their own theory and not be swayed by irrational facts or people.

AB: The point is not to believe overmuch in one's own theories, but rather to question them, test them, consider deeply that any given belief may be mistaken.

Certainly I agree with the second half of the sentence, but perhaps I don't realize what you're suggesting, Hal.

Is it: One must feel some courage in stating one's own ideas, daring to put them out into the open? I agree with that.

HN The criteria of truth comes from many facets which we will discuss at the next meeting.

There is the undeniable truth of life, death and taxes.

AB: all three are very debatable: life cannot be captured by any set of claims or statements.

death is a big question--- is there any consciousness or "life" in any sense beyond bodily death?

and taxes? Well, what about the "fair tax" and also the reality that many tribal people have lived for centuries and millennia without taxes...

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ra·tion·al·i·ty [ ràshə nállətee ] (plural ra·tion·al·i·ties)

1. rational attitude: rational thought or behavior, or the ability to think rationally
2. something rational: a rational belief, opinion, or action ( often used in the plural )
3. condition of being logical: the condition in which values, beliefs, and techniques are believed to be based on logical, explicable principles
Our next meeting is scheduled for May 21 at Renee’s place, 111 Dandelion.  Dave has chosen the topic “Rationality” and will be sending out a paper to consider.

It is a very interesting topic.  Maybe Adam or Dave can suggest a percent of the time that people act rationally.  

Shakespeare did not use the word rationality, but he did use rational twice, as presented below:

Keyword search results:

Preserve virginity. Loss of virginity is rational    All's Well that Ends Well: I, i
Park with the rational hind costard: she deserves well.    Love's Labour's Lost: I, ii

2 results returned

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For our next meeting, May 7, Darrel asked the question: "Is there a direction or purpose to move forward?"
  
The word to consider is "Ambiguity."  
 
Or such ambiguous giving out, to note   Hamlet: I, v
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For our next meeting, April 16, Adam poses this question:  What is the proper basis for morality?
   
Jonathan Haidt suggests not one criterion, but five. (As someone mentioned, we might come up with more than the ones he lays out.)   Anyway, here's the contact source: 
 
  
    
Google Jonathan Haidt  for more information.  
Shakespeare used the word morality only one time:
(As the morality of imprisonment.    Measure for Measure: I, ii )

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Vivian has selected “Meaning of Words” for our next topic of discussion, at my place, April 2.

The following message is from her:

“Which words give you a happy feeling?  Do some words make you ponder; do you come back to them again and again?  Do you want to swallow particular words as if they have no place in your vocabulary?

Bring these words to the discussion group -3 or 4- so that we can look at them and find out why we feel about them as we do.”

(My words express my purpose.    Measure for Measure: II, iv)

John

 

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For our March 19 session, at my place, Sy has selected the topic "Pornography". 

Shakespeare did not use the word pornography.

(Dost thou conjure for wenches,   The Comedy of Errors: III, i )

 (The harlot's cheek, beautied with plastering art,   Hamlet: III, i  )

(A thousand moral paintings I can show   Timon of Athens: I, i )

(Here is her picture: let me see; I think,   The Two Gentlemen of Verona: IV, iv )

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For our next session, Scout has selected "Integrity" as the topic.  My place, February 20.  Wikipedia may be a place to go to get some insight.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrity
 
(Ours of true zeal and deep integrity.   King Richard II: V, iii )
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1)  The Socrates Cafe  for February 6  topic (in terms of words) as chosen by Roe was Liberty and Justice.
 
2)  To Adam:  Thank you for your response and insight about the poems.  One way to be remembered is to write some memorable poetry.  The poem by Isaac (corrected spelling) Watts is a stanza from a hymn he wrote titled "Our God, our help in ages past", written in 1719.
 
3)  I must remember to always use spell check.

(I'll well remember you.   Pericles, Prince of Tyre: V, i )
 
John


  "Death and Life"
By Emily Dickenson
 
Apparently with no surprise
To any hapopy flower,
the frost beheads it at its play
With accidental power.
 
The blond assassin passes on,
The sun proceeds unmoved
To measure off another day
For an approving god.

 
         Adam: There can be some different interpretations of this. One reminds me of the Rumi poem read at the last session, and I'd phrase it thus: There is great mystery in that the divine spirit acts on many levels, as both moth and flame, predator and prey, not taking sides.
      The frost has its own action in the cosmos (dharma), and the flower its own. Sometimes scissors cuts paper (which can cover rock which can break scissors). The poignancy comes if we identify with with the hapopy flower. (Interesting word---is that right? Happy or hapopy. Happy-Poppy? )
Verse from song "Our God Our Help In Ages Past"
By Issac Watts
 
Time, like an ever-rolling stream,
Bears all its sons away;
They fly forgotten, as a dream
Dies at the opening day.
     Adam:  In the next poem, again, the interpretation can be very nihilistic. The nothing matters anyway view of the cosmos.
         I prefer a view that's more aligned with the mythic structure of Hartshorne and Whitehead--- an aesthetic view, in which every experience does matter, and to God is never forgotten. All registers and participates in the unfolding of the Creative Advance, even the experience of a flower blowing in the breeze, a moment's dream...
      The value of this myth is that it makes our efforts meaningful: We are seeking to build a better world, and celebrate life. It's not just for us, or for those we can consciously identify as being able to appreciate it. It's not just for humans.

 

Last updated on 06/19/2008 by john_swardstrom